Curse

Frank Dudenstein · Apr 20, 2006, 01:53 PM // 13:53

I enjoy playing energy denial - and am bored of the standard build - I like using different builds and throwing opponents off. However I am frustrated by the lack of consistency between two very similar spells:

Wither vs Panic

Both spells are almost identically comarable:

* Both are ELITE and cause -2 energy regen
* Identical cast times and recharges
* The durations are comparable (Panic better at low end and Wither better at high end). A wash I think.
* Wither costs 10E but is single target. Panic costs 25E but can easily hit 2-3 (or more) targets. I call that a wash.
* Wither has a secondary effect of health degen, Panic's secondary effect is making signets painful. Again, a wash.

But, of course as you know, Wither ends if target hits 0 energy and Panic does not. Effectively making Wither useless against anyone with the slightest concept of focus switching.

Izzy (or anyone at anet), can you explain your thinking on this one? Basically, Wither is one of the worst elites in the game because of this. In fact, it would not even be taken if it were not elite!.

Thanks in advance!

JR · Apr 20, 2006, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

I enjoy playing energy denial - and am bored of the standard build - I like using different builds and throwing opponents off. However I am frustrated by the lack of consistency between two very similar spells:

Wither vs Panic

Both spells are almost identically comarable:

* Both are ELITE and cause -2 energy regen
* Identical cast times and recharges
* The durations are comparable (Panic better at low end and Wither better at high end). A wash I think.
* Wither costs 10E but is single target. Panic costs 25E but can easily hit 2-3 (or more) targets. I call that a wash.
* Wither has a secondary effect of health degen, Panic's secondary effect is making signets painful. Again, a wash.

But, of course as you know, Wither ends if target hits 0 energy and Panic does not. Effectively making Wither useless against anyone with the slightest concept of focus switching.

Izzy (or anyone at anet), can you explain your thinking on this one? Basically, Wither is one of the worst elites in the game because of this. In fact, it would not even be taken if it were not elite!.

Thanks in advance!

Would you also like him to explain why there are many many other elites and standard skills that are basicly trash in PvP? Maybe you would like to have a crack at balancing every skill in the game for PvP, whilst keeping them viable in PvE?

It's not an easy job.

Yanman.be · Apr 20, 2006, 02:10 PM // 14:10

/methinks Wither and Panic are balanced because a Necro will let people do things ( attack and cast with negative effects ), and a mesmer wants to prevent them from being used ( hence the damage when using signets ).

romO · Apr 20, 2006, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Would you also like him to explain why there are many many other elites and standard skills that are basicly trash in PvP? Maybe you would like to have a crack at balancing every skill in the game for PvP, whilst keeping them viable in PvE?

It's not an easy job.

JR has a point. Panic-based energy denial is all the craze in PvE, and if it were to be nerfed for PvP, you would have districts full of dye farmers screaming that anet just took away their reason to live. The same thing would happen if Wither was buffed, but they would now cry about it being overpowered and ruining the economy of monstrous claws and such.

Yanman.be · Apr 20, 2006, 02:23 PM // 14:23

How do people farm with wither and panic? dyes? monstrous claws? never heard of that

SaintGreg · Apr 20, 2006, 06:04 PM // 18:04

I think the bigger problem with wither is that they managed to create an elite version of a skill marginally worse than the non-elite skill (malaise)

Frank Dudenstein · Apr 20, 2006, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by romO

JR has a point. Panic-based energy denial is all the craze in PvE, and if it were to be nerfed for PvP, you would have districts full of dye farmers screaming that anet just took away their reason to live. The same thing would happen if Wither was buffed, but they would now cry about it being overpowered and ruining the economy of monstrous claws and such.

First off - I am clearly hoping for a wither buff - I think Panic is fine. Wither is fine too as long as they take away the condition that it drops if target hits 0 energy... I mean, it is an elite...

But more to your point - I am VERY curious. How in the world does Panic-based energy denial help farming??? Farming what???? I don't PVE much, but I must say that is a new one to me ... I have to know...

Last thing - who gives a crap about balance in PVE??? PVE consists of only 3 things:
1. Echo SS and let the monsters kill themselves
2. Raise a massive horde of minions from said dead monsters
3. Have one guy hold the book (or gear or whatever) and stack him with 12000 enchantments while the rest of you stand around and do 1 & 2.

So please don't tell me that they're "preserving the delicate balance of PVE"

Warskull · Apr 20, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Guild Wars isn't balanced so every skill is good. Guild Wars is balanced so you have a small selection of good skills and no skill is too good. As a result there are a lot of elites that just don't work as they are. Historically over balance patches you will notice they recognize that there are many skills that are useless in PvP. However at the same time they are far more concerned with fixing the stuff that is too strong than fixing the stuff that is too weak.

Cyan The Archer · Apr 21, 2006, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

But more to your point - I am VERY curious. How in the world does Panic-based energy denial help farming??? Farming what???? I don't PVE much, but I must say that is a new one to me ... I have to know...

Last thing - who gives a crap about balance in PVE??? PVE consists of only 3 things:
1. Echo SS and let the monsters kill themselves
2. Raise a massive horde of minions from said dead monsters
3. Have one guy hold the book (or gear or whatever) and stack him with 12000 enchantments while the rest of you stand around and do 1 & 2.

So please don't tell me that they're "preserving the delicate balance of PVE"

I would suggest that you edit this post. Else your going to get some flames if a PvE player read this. It's sad to hear an opinion like that... Very sad..
.. Oh well, i dont wanna say more or else it's just going to be a flamewar.

Divineshadows · Apr 21, 2006, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyan The Archer

I would suggest that you edit this post. Else your going to get some flames if a PvE player read this. It's sad to hear an opinion like that... Very sad..
.. Oh well, i dont wanna say more or else it's just going to be a flamewar.

Why should he edit a post that is right? He described some of the basics of how to powergame PvE. Panic-based energy denial farming in PvE? Funniest thing I've read in a while.

Seef II · Apr 21, 2006, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Funny how Wither is so bad in PvE, you can focus swap down to get rid of it, and the bosses will spend so much of their time rehexing... heh.

Ensign · Apr 21, 2006, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

He described some of the basics of how to powergame PvE.

He missed 55 Prot Spirit farming, a pillar of PvE balance.

Also I disagree about the usefulness of the book trick and Spiteful Spirit. Sure they are useful if you want to follow the tired formula of every other MMO out there, but if you want to powergame PvE you just Order-up a bunch of warriors and rangers, and they mow through everything so fast that these tricks simply don't matter.

The only reason you don't run 4-5 warriors in PvP is that the enemy will have lots of warrior hate, a lot of it scaling. The only reason you don't run 4-5 warriors in PvE is you don't know 4-5 competent warriors.

Peace,
-CxE

Rey Lentless · Apr 21, 2006, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

I think the bigger problem with wither is that they managed to create an elite version of a skill marginally worse than the non-elite skill (malaise)

I agree completely, if you made wither non elite.. it still wouldn't show up on my bar before malaise because of the recharge and cost.

Quote:

How do people farm with wither and panic? dyes? monstrous claws? never heard of that

Me either.. didn't even know panic and wither were bothered with in pve.. but I haven't done much for quite a while.. so who knows. Someone would have to enlighten me on why wither being buffed would be game breaking in pve.

Quote:

The only reason you don't run 4-5 warriors in PvP is that the enemy will have lots of warrior hate, a lot of scaling. The only reason you don't run 4-5 warriors in PvE is you don't know 4-5 competent warriors.

No, that's not it at all. You don't run that many warriors, because they don't out damage other profs. You can direct the AI to attack who you want, and you can round them up and use aoe (although with different skills than previously) to your advantage, making the single target damage of warriors inferior in pve.. at least in non-solo situations. I'd still rather use a warrior if you're solo farming.

minor · Apr 21, 2006, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

He missed 55 Prot Spirit farming, a pillar of PvE balance.

The only reason you don't run 4-5 warriors in PvP is that the enemy will have lots of warrior hate, a lot of scaling. The only reason you don't run 4-5 warriors in PvE is you don't know 4-5 competent warriors.

Peace,
-CxE

Rofl now thats a zinger!

SaintGreg · Apr 21, 2006, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Also I disagree about the usefulness of the book trick and Spiteful Spirit. Sure they are useful if you want to follow the tired formula of every other MMO out there, but if you want to powergame PvE you just Order-up a bunch of warriors and rangers, and they mow through everything so fast that these tricks simply don't matter.

Ever been to tombs recently? Its all about barrage this, orders that. These groups tear through enemies like a hot knife through butter. And this is in an area where SS is useless and there is no book. I'm rather surprised (and glad) that this hasn't trickled into other areas.

Divineshadows · Apr 21, 2006, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintGreg

Ever been to tombs recently? Its all about barrage this, orders that. These groups tear through enemies like a hot knife through butter. And this is in an area where SS is useless and there is no book. I'm rather surprised (and glad) that this hasn't trickled into other areas.

My wife's guild (along with many other PvE guilds) runs the barrage/pet build as it is called for PvE tombs. 5 barrage rangers with pets (low level pets actually help as this provides more corpses), one orders necro, one minion master, and one healing monk. I have not done much PvE of late, so the build name barrage/pet had me amused for some reason due to the amount of alcohol I had had and I started spamming "WTB barrage; WTS pet" in the trade channel. Tears of laughter when someone whispered me with "How do you sell a pet?"

Ensign · Apr 21, 2006, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

You don't run that many warriors, because they don't out damage other profs.

No, no, that's not the reason. I've been thinking about it some more and I'm pretty sure it's just the mentality of western players to be defensive first and worry about victory second. That's where you get these book tricks and stacked enchantments, or the w/mo with mending on the low end. The goal is to create a situation where you won't die first, then add offense so that you can eventually win.

This is reinforced by a long history of MMOs where this was the only way to play. When a raid boss takes a long time to kill, and will kill the players instantly if the defense isn't set up just right, people get accustomed to worrying about that defensive base first.

Sure, you can play Guild Wars that way if you want.

But you don't have to. This isn't a game filled with really tough enemies that you have to be very careful to stay alive against, it's full of paper-mache punching bags that explode when you take a bat to them. Instead of worrying about how to survive all the damage they can deal, you can just *kill them*, and then they won't deal any damage.

I'm not going to say that the tank / buff / AoE model is wrong, or that it's ineffective, because it isn't. But if you think that people approach PvE that way because it's the fastest way to kill mobs you are bluntly wrong. It's done for stability and idiot proofing, for creating easy to follow blueprints that have a lot of failsafes that make it difficult to fail. It's also a much more casual pace which a lot of the PvE population seems to like. Hell, I'll admit, when I'm on a mission that I want to finish I want stability and failsafes to avoid wasting my time. But for power farming? Give me buffed warriors and speed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintGreg

Ever been to tombs recently? Its all about barrage this, orders that.

Yeah, the players that have learned that you can just kill things have all gravitated there. It's really a wonderful build that just rips through PvE like it should be. At least if you want to power farm things =)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintGreg

I'm rather surprised (and glad) that this hasn't trickled into other areas.

Why's that, out of curiosity? Don't like the style, or don't like how cookie-cutter it has become?

Peace,
-CxE

Rey Lentless · Apr 21, 2006, 10:49 PM // 22:49

I'm sorry, I still can't see single damage warriors out-performing aoe. And with only 1 warrior, you limit the # of defensive slots you have to waste, by just putting a few on them and having them retain all aggro. With multiple warriors, and warriors built for damage, you're going to need to spread out that defense farther.. and commit more slots to it, that you could otherwise use for damage.

But I don't even know what aoe works and what scatters monsters and causes aggro to go everywhere either. The only pve'ing I've done since the aoe changes to AI, is solo farming to prepare for factions and it's basically a non-issue in that way. I take it from the current builds used that barrage and spiteful do not scatter monsters, and I'd think that would still outperform whatever warriors could do. But maybe I'm wrong and maybe aoe is neutered enough that warriors dominate the damage game in pve now too.

But the philosophy isn't 'defense first'. It's directing all of the monsters aggro on to only one person, who is built to take it.. and that frees up everyone else to go pure damage (other than maybe half of a monk who throws some crap onto the warrior too). With multiple warriors, you're eliminating that element and have to worry about multiple people being attacked, who aren't tanks built to lower whatever damage is coming their way to a meaningless amount that can be dealt with with minimal defense.

Seef II · Apr 22, 2006, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Well, in PvE, you can play surprisingly offensively as a warrior, since very very few monsters can actually shut you down. They can interrupt, but oftentimes you can throw junk like parasitic bond and then use your money spells. If four warriors charged at a bunch of titans, they'll be tanking, all right, leaving the monks trying to keep the warriors clean - it's really not that different than PvP, except the monks don't really have to take care of themselves!
As a warrior, you're hardly blinded, cripple is rather negligible, and the worst that could happen is bleeding + life siphon + poison or something. Healing Signet and Troll Unguent outdo degen easily, and conveniently, they're the warrior and ranger self-heals. Ele monsters are a joke if you've half-decent rangers on your side.
Most mesmer mobs have only conjure phantasm and cry of frustration... you're not going to get burned or surged until the very end of the game, and the pitiful damage and controllable aggro PvE monsters have make surviving easy on its own right.

Hella Good · Apr 22, 2006, 01:31 AM // 01:31

I have used Panic and Wither in PvP a lot. Both are wonderful spells that take some non-mainstream builds to use but the results are nevertheless pretty good. I don't have any complains about these 2 elites. There is worse out there.